Week 2

Week 2 - activities and recap

Welcome to week 2 of the Leaving Lockdown Public Debate.

On this page you can find the slides, recordings and transcripts for the second week, in case you want to remind yourself of what was said and discussed.

We will shortly also be adding the answers to the questions you asked in your break-out groups.

Just email the team on covid19deliberation@traverse.ltd if you get stuck.

Welcome to week 2 of the Leaving Lockdown Public Debate.

On this page you can find the slides, recordings and transcripts for the second week, in case you want to remind yourself of what was said and discussed.

We will shortly also be adding the answers to the questions you asked in your break-out groups.

Just email the team on covid19deliberation@traverse.ltd if you get stuck.

Your views on the guest presentations

Let us know in what way / on what topics you agreed or disagreed with the views of the guest speakers, Michael and Peter. 

Write a few sentences below to tell us what you think!

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Peter and Micheal last week was great helpful information great having Peterson our breakoutgroup on Tuesday

Andrew over 2 years ago

At this moment I am very much opened to the options that are being considered and the speakers while providing very useful information on the ethics underpinning contact tracing, could not reassure around the question of data misuse.
Yet, I agree that the use of contact tracing through apps can only contribute to our understanding of the transmission of this virus, hopefully along side traditional method of contact tracing to maximise the pool of data and increase effective prevention.

Tienga over 2 years ago

There was a lot of information and I can't say I remember everything the speakers said. I think the speakers made me become slightly more in favour of the UK adopting a contact tracing system as soon as possible. It seems to be, by and large, an effective tool in the fight against coronavirus.

Juno over 2 years ago

was very useful to be able to revisit the main points from the speakers, as like other people have said, it's hard to take it all in at the time and to think things over while we were all online. It seems there are pros and cons for all methods, I would like to see a global app that works everywhere, and a reliable test for confirming your infection. At present these don't seem to be 100 percent accurate, have read that there are new tests using saliva but am not sure if these are more reliable. They are certainly less invasive than the swab tests. The tests developed by Abbott and Roche for antibodies are apparently very reliable. It was also refreshing to have speakers who know their stuff, unlike some of the government spokespersons that don't seem to be at all trustworthy and are just spouting the government lines given to them. I think if there is an app rolled out soon, then the explanation, encouragement to use, the altruistic and health benefits should be presented to the general public by respected independent scientists, and not the government. At the present time the trust in the government is at an all time low and we need everyone to be on board with this for all our sakes.

sylvia over 2 years ago

I initially worried about the app not including the vulnerable ie people without smartphones or older people, but one of the speakers spoke about how the app will help everyone if enough of the population takes it up (easier said then done). The app doesn't protect the users from the virus, it recommends quarantine to affected users so they don't spread it. If enough people use the app and follow the advice, there is a chance it will actually protect someone who is vulnerable. I also felt I understood the two options of apps at the end of the presentations. I also was moved by the idea that ethics isn't just about "what we do" but also "not doing anything".

Chelsea over 2 years ago

I found the technical talk a bit 'dry'. I believe that technology is a tool that we could use to help us out of this situation but you need some evangelists who can motivate the non-technical/sceptical amongst us. As for data I've been in IT long enough to know that most of our data is out there already. However this data, in the wrong hands, could impact our abilities to work, travel, shop and many other things so it needs to be protected. Data protection is also a joint responsibility; if we choose to capture data on our phone then we also need to make sure that our phones are secure i.e. Passwords etc.

This morning I listened to a great talk at the Hay Festival "An exacting analysis of the responses to the covid-19 pandemic from one of the world's most respected experts, Professor Sridhar, chair of Global Public Health at the University of Edinburgh". It highlighted for me the the need for extensive track, trace and test - an app, however good, is not enough

Mandy over 2 years ago

Plenty of information, but I did not take in all of it - especially the first one. With regard to the second presentation, I found it easier to follow and I especially liked the focus on the ethics behind the tracing. At the moment there is conflicting information in the media about the tracing apps and the questions about the effectiveness of them. The number of people that have to engage with the apps for them to be successful for example and also the tech companies behind them. Will the NHS app work or will companies like Apple and Google have to provide the apps? Plus at the moment any message from the government, in my opinion, can be taken with a pinch of salt.

Suzanne over 2 years ago

I think both of these presentations were very well constructed and very informative, breaking down the two main styles of apps made it really easy to understand. I feel this information should maybe made little bit more public in terms of transparency so people are informed Before they go ahead with an app if it’s not mandatory. Keen to understand if breakaway bubbles could be created from the app so that groups of people could come together knowing there’s been no contact with symptomatic people, could be a game changer. I felt the nhs being linked to this could save lives in terms of the speed of information being updated from tests, I’d also feel more confident if the nhs was holding this information as an extension of my medical records.

Russell over 2 years ago

I found both presentations very informative especially learning more about the traditional methods of contact tracking and tracing that public health officials have long applied to infectious diseases such as TB which made me think that the technology is really an add on to an existing system that public health officials already can do so why not run the covid 19 test, track and trace at the local level. The use of the NHS app becomes more appealing when you also learn that the app being developed by Apple and Google grew out of the early work of NHS digital so maybe so it's a choice of which app will work best with the manual system in the UK. However how the NHS app and the manual system are going to work together is still not clear and therefore whether using the NHS app is really going to make a difference to a test, track and trace system.

Tracey over 2 years ago

It was extremely informative, I also found it beneficial to look at the ethical side - if it saves only one life it is worth as much as saving many.

It also made me look more deeply into contact tracing, both ways shown in the presentation and also used by other countries. It posited a dilemma, especially around false reporting. Do we accept it at face value and accept there may be an element of malingering, or does the app wait for a positive result before pinging out to those who’ve been in close contact. As someone else has already mentioned, this also doesn’t include the asymptomatic who would pass an antibody test yet possibly not a Covid19 test

Kerry over 2 years ago

It was informative but a lot to take in. Perhaps the more information I get the more confused I am about some things. Even the experts are not experts as yet.

Diana over 2 years ago

I thought they gave a balanced presentation, although they didn't acknowledge the facts that a) without adequate testing there's a danger that lots of people self isolate who don't need to (which will be more disruptive as normal life starts to resume) and b) it doesn't address the issue of people without symptoms who therefore won't report themselves/ask for a test. The fact that no-one knows how the app and manual contact tracing are supposed to integrate is very worrying - if the 'shoe leather' contact tracing were to concentrate on people who aren't well connected with technology, then it seems even more daft to use minimum wage people in call centres, rather than experienced and local contact tracers.
I thought the arguments about centralised versus non centralised systems were well presented, although I would have thought there could be other ways of identifying geographical hotspots without using the centralised system. I do have a residual worry that the government is reaching for this because they didn't get a manual system in place in time. And I'm not yet convinced that it will work well enough to gain people's trust.

Carolyn over 2 years ago

I thought that they were persuasive but slightly dismissive of other possible ways to track and trace the virus. In addition, they could have mentioned the practical aspects of individuals suddenly finding out that they had to self-isolate i.e. rearranging their lives, stopping work, the effect on the others in the household in terms of work or school and basics like shopping. Perhaps the starting point should have been the effective use of an app with details of the Isle of Wight trail and other examples - particularly situations where a virus is widespread like the in the UK.

Janet over 2 years ago

These are my thoughts. didn't say much last night, because I think it just takes me a while to absorb and digest new information before I can have an opinion about.

One of the things that really resonated with me was Michael talking about the ethics of *not* doing something. I guess for me this boils down to a choice of privacy vs freedom. I want things to go back to normal (as much as possible), I want to go back to work, I want my kids to go back to school, I want to get on with my life, I’m willing to temporarily give up some privacy for that to happen, of course the third option is more deaths, and that's untenable to me.

I think the centralised app would probably be best, or a possible a merger of the two --an app with the ability to operate decentrally and centrally in tandem, but I dunno if that's possible.

I do have my reservations around how this is going to work, especially in my world, built up metropolis, working in a large comprehensive secondary school, with over a thousand students (and yes I have subtracted yr 11). I think because the virus is so endemic, we're going to be constantly yo-yoing in and out of isolation. I wonder how unscrupulous employers in the service industry are going to be about their employees having to take time off for suspected covid? and how that's going to work for people on zero hours contracts?

But, I think my biggest issue with downloading and installing a tracing app on my phone is the government. I don’t vote Tory, i’ve never been a big fan of the conservative party, but I definitely remember a time at some point in my childhood when they weren’t a bunch of selfish, unscrupulous wastrals. I didn’t agree with them ideologically, but i felt like they were doing what they thought was best for the country, whereas these guys, i can’t even begin to express how little trust i have for Johnson and Cummings, both in terms of their incompetency and their complete lack of moral compass. I can't think of an institution I trust less than the British government right now. I don’t think i’m alone in this belief, and i can’t really see an easy solution to this problem. I don’t trust them, and i wouldn’t trust anyone they’d outsource to. (apologies to anyone I’ve offended with this point of view).

I feel a bit more trusting of the NHS as an institution. Could we not just use joinzoe? There’s already a lot of people using that, or would changing it from an unofficial research tool to the official contact tracing system have its own set of ethical issues?

Sorry, that really wasn't a few sentences.

Caroline over 2 years ago

Michael & Peter did a brilliant job of presenting this information in a clear and concise way and they couldn't have done it better. With regards to what is proposed within them - I found it a very interesting point about it being a criminal offence not declaring symptoms. The concept of 'data bread crumbing' also jumped out at me - you'd like that we should use the info collected by these apps that we all use to make this tracing app stronger, and it filling in gaps of our activity and where we have been. But again it does leave me feeling slightly strange and with a dystopian/1984 element behind it. Technology should help us, but the stronger it becomes the more ethical questions it raises. However, my overall feeling despite some uneasiness, is that it is worth sacrificing these concerns if we want a 'normal' way of life back, given we cannot depend on a successful vaccine.

Anna over 2 years ago
Page last updated: 29 May 2020, 01:27 PM